Bring Out the Talent: A Learning and Development Podcast

Experts Leading Experts: Building a Culture of Teaching and Learning

• Maria Melfa & Jocelyn Allen

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In this episode, we’re joined by Joel Podolny, CEO of Honor Education and the founding Dean of Apple University, for a deep dive into how organizations can build a culture where teaching and learning are embedded into everyday work.

Joel shares insights from his leadership at Apple, Yale, Harvard, and Stanford, focusing on the concept of “experts leading experts.” We examine the challenges and opportunities in empowering top talent to share knowledge, the role of humility and mutual respect, and the steps leaders can take to create meaningful, peer-driven learning environments.

Whether you're shaping learning strategy, driving innovation, or developing your teams, this episode offers practical guidance for cultivating a stronger learning culture at every level.

 

 

David Yas:

Welcome to Bring Out the Talent, a podcast featuring learning and development experts discussing innovative approaches and industry insights. Tune in to hear our talent help develop yours. Now here are your hosts, TTA's CEO and President Maria Melfa and Talent Manager Jocelyn Allen..

Jocelyn Allen:

Well, hello, Maria.

John Laverdure:

Hi there. How are you?

Jocelyn Allen:

You must be under the weather.

John Laverdure:

Yeah, haven't been feeling very well lately. Thanks for noticing, Jocelyn.

Jocelyn Allen:

Well, just kidding. Hi, John. Everybody, it's John Laverdure back with us today. You know him well. He visits us on occasion and is going to help us. Oh, David, come on. Don't egg them on. Just kidding. John, it has the technical prowess that we learn from here every day on TTA. And considering that we have this more involved, strategic type of conversation today, I really wanted you to be able to join us to lend a hand to the convo. So thank you.

John Laverdure:

Yeah, no, that's very nice of you. I figured you were trying to keep me away, but I'm glad to join.

Jocelyn Allen:

Well, beggars can't be choosers, John, as they say. But anyway, on with the show, because we are really excited for today's episode on experts leading experts, building a culture of teaching and learning. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about the episode and our guest. In today's episode of Bring Out the Talent, we're thrilled to be joined by Joel Podolny, CEO and co-founder of Honor Education and the founding dean of Apple University. Joel's career is nothing short of extraordinary. As we know, he shaped transformative learning experience at some of the most iconic organizations in the world, from Apple to Yale, Harvard, and Stanford. You know, just a couple, four little guys on the planet. We'll dive into the idea of experts leading experts and how organizations can create a culture where sharing knowledge isn't just encouraged, it's a secret for driving innovation and excellence. Joel will also discuss the challenges leaders are facing in building these cultures, why humility and mutual respect are complete game changers, and how to empower your top talent to teach and learn from one another. Get ready for another insightful conversation that's all about transforming the way organizations think about learning and leadership. Welcome to the show, Joel.

Joel Podolny:

Thank you. It's a real, real pleasure to be here.

Jocelyn Allen:

We're excited to talk to you about your expertise as well. I mean, transformative learning culture, the way that we teach, the way that we learn, that is 100% of what TTA does. So we're really excited to hear more from you and your expertise. And so we'd love to hear more about honor education and your history with Apple University. Can you tell us a little bit more about how your journey has shaped your understanding of this key phrase that we're bringing to the table of experts leading experts and industry agnostic even.

Joel Podolny:

Yeah, I'd be delighted to start with that. I began my career as a business school professor. And one of the things about a business school degree is it's a generalist degree, right? You're giving the same degree to those who are going to start entrepreneurial careers, those who are going to work in large corporations, those who are going to go into services, consulting, finance, whatever it is. And so for me, it was like an unbelievable learning when I got to Apple that how somebody leads in hardware is different than how somebody leads in software and how somebody leads in software is different than how somebody leads in marketing. Sure, there's some basic foundations, but you realize how much somebody's expertise can be critical to their ability to lead, to manage, to move an organization forward through uncertainty because that expertise becomes the basis for sort of the intuition that allows you to, especially when it's about innovation and change, to start to have an insight around, I don't yet know how we're going to solve this problem, but I know this is the direction to move forward. And that was a real awesomeness. for me, again, just given where I had started, where it's like, oh, we're going to teach the same cases, we're going to give the same books, regardless of the career. And so, yeah, I really, it was a big part of my evolution was realizing if you're really going to elevate the learning in a company, you need to figure out how you leverage that expertise as part of it.

John Laverdure:

That's awesome. So I... It's amazing that you were handpicked by Steve Jobs over for Apple University.

Jocelyn Allen:

I was just going to say that and be like, is this real or are you lying? That's the coolest thing I've ever heard, that Steve Jobs is like, you know what, Joel? You. It's you. That's so cool.

Joel Podolny:

Yeah, one of the things I've always tried to do in my career, this was true for the deanship at Yale, it was true for Apple, is you always want to show up near the end of a search. You never want to show up near the beginning. Because in the beginning, they're really picky. But near the end, I mean, it's like, he's a warm body. Let's just put him into the job. Who's left? Joel? Right, right, exactly. I was the last one standing.

John Laverdure:

Employment by apathy. Perfect. Awesome. Right. So when you're building these cultures of teaching amongst experts, I mean, there's got to be some challenges in creating that type of culture. What are they and how can leaders address those?

Joel Podolny:

So one is just practical, right? Which is I think for anybody who has spent any time teaching and in all the sort of roles I've had, even including this one, I certainly try to weave teaching into what I do because for me, it is my passion. Like, you know, what I'm teaching, that's what I'm in my passion. I'm in my happy place. But the practical issue is for those who haven't taught, they think teaching and presenting are the same thing. And one of the practical points that I like to make when I've got an expert who we're trying to leverage their expertise for the purpose of teaching is teaching is only maybe 20% what can you put into somebody? Cause like when you're presenting, it's kind of like a hundred percent, like kind of what can I, what can I put into them? What can I give them? It is in me that I want, but, but when you're teaching, there's a bit of that, but it's, but, but, but 80% is what can I pull out of them? Right. And, and you're going to use in this example, of an expert who hasn't done a lot of teaching. You're gonna use your experience, you're gonna use your expertise as the basis on which to create curiosity, to create interest, to create questions. But you then have to lean into that. How does what you're sharing bring up something for them that they want to share back for you? And that to me is like kind of the first, you know, sort of the first, just very practical challenge you have to overcome. Because when we get, because it requires a certain amount of vulnerability, right? For somebody to be open to the fact that for this to be great, this session, it has to be about more than what I've got in my head and I'm going to try to put into theirs. It's got to be like, how do I draw and pull from them? And that requires somebody to let go a bit in that moment and to be open and kind of humble and curious and all the rest.

Jocelyn Allen:

the very valid point that I think a lot of people struggle with is they know what to do with the kind of the initial impact of it all. But like you said, once they're curious and start asking questions, you've got them on the hook. So where do you go with that? And how do you get the buy-in of the expertise as well? Because I think like, have you ever had, if you're trying to break, my brain's going in a thousand different directions right now, can you tell? But have you ever had I guess when you're trying to get these experts involved and bringing them into this, you are who you are and there's so much more that can be achieved. Yeah, no, I...

Joel Podolny:

I mean, it's a great question. And I think you're one. It is probably true that not everybody is necessarily primed for that. They may be insecure, as smart as they may be. I mean, one of the things that amazed me at I've had the good fortune to be around really, really smart and accomplished people, but it can also be amazing how really, really smart and accomplished people can themselves be insecure about their own expertise and being seen not as being expert. And I think if I think if that's really fundamental and core to somebody, they're going to have a hard time being a teacher. I mean, just to kind of be completely frank about it. But I also think you can prime somebody with things like, you're going to, and I'll say this, I mean, look, you're going to come up with whatever it is that you want to teach over the hour or whatever you have. But like, once you come up with that, ask yourself, what would you love to learn about them? And how are you going to get that out of it? Like for this to be really, great for you, what would you like to know? And either in terms of their reaction to what you're putting forward, in terms of how their experience relates to what your experience has been, in terms of how for somebody who's maybe 15, 20 years earlier in their career than how you are now, how it's different. And if you can have that in your mind. I want to walk out with those things. It almost naturally puts you into this different place of asking questions, pulling things out. At Honor, we've built a technology platform to make that a little bit easier for people to do in the moment, because especially when it's virtual, not all the platforms lend themselves really well to people sharing back most of their you know, kind of built to be pipes, just kind of pushing content in one direction and not in the other and not in the other. But it ultimately begins with the mindset of the of the instructor, the teacher, the expert.

John Laverdure:

So what you're sharing, it reminds me of kind of early in my learning related career, kind of that that distinction between instructing versus facilitating. Is that pretty analogous to what you're referring to?

Joel Podolny:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. The only way in which I'd probably do a little bit of a tweak on it is, to me, we think facilitation is a skill that doesn't necessarily require the facilitator in the front of the room to be an expert, to be more knowledgeable or at least as knowledgeable as the people who are in the room. I think you want to bring those facilitation skills to the expert, but it is also the case that what you want experts, leading experts or experts, teaching experts, you want the person in the front of the room to have a point of view. And then having a point of view, and in fact, be a powerful way to then pull things out of other people, right? It's like, it's about advocacy and inquiry, right? To go back to the sort of Chris Argyris sort of language, right? I'm going to put out my view. You may disagree. If you disagree, I want to hear. I want to hear why. right? Let's have a conversation about that. When somebody's a facilitator and their whole role is to facilitate, they oftentimes find themselves, I think, in the position of putting out a question, sort of hearing a lot of answers to the questions. Maybe they whiteboard it, put on a flip chart, whatever it is. But it's harder for them to kind of drive debates that ultimately lead to in my view, greater insights or epiphany because unlike the expert, it's harder for them to come in with a clear point of view. Does that... No,

John Laverdure:

that helps a ton. I'm glad we teased out that distinction because earlier on when you were explaining it, I was just like, that sounds like the facilitation versus instructing. But really, it's kind of bringing it all to the table. It's having that deep expertise, having your own perspectives on this, and also having those facilitation skills to elicit that engagement and drive some further learning. So no, that helps a ton.

Joel Podolny:

Yeah, and what you just said, well said, much more pithily said than I did. I often say the talent of an academic, which I was for many, many years, was the ability to say in two hours what a normal person can say in two minutes. That's a talent in and of itself, by the way. So thank you for saying it in a much more pithy fashion.

Jocelyn Allen:

So what... What are the practical type of steps that organizations should be thinking about or taking to create this environment where experts are feeling empowered to teach and learn not only from one another, but to the masses and kind of like adjust their role, create that professional development within their atmosphere? What should organizations be thinking about and or doing to get that started?

Joel Podolny:

It's a great question. I think one is to not make decisions a teaching and learning experience set up so precious that you feel like it can only happen at a particular location in the corporate offices, campus, whatever it is. I mean, we think about these iconic corporate university campuses like Crotonville or whatnot. And They had, on the one hand, like amazing, right? Like, I mean, they're so symbolic in terms of driving a learning culture, but they have the drawback of, well, when we're at a place like Claretonville, we're learning, but then we go back to work and we do teaching when we're there. We do like work with feedback when we're here. And I think a big part of what you want to do. And I think a big part of the way this is evolving and why you don't have a lot of companies today anymore thinking about these corporations is we're looking for ways to weave the teaching into work. And so to make it a assumed part of a comm meeting right who do we have on the team that they can share some particular insight that's going to be a value and we just take that as given and and and to rotate that and make it part of it that's one two is a big part of teaching is is in in my view is as we said it's it's It's asking questions as much as it is providing answers. The other part I always feel of teaching is it's giving the whys behind the what. So often you end up in these corporate cultures of like report outs. This is what we did. And then this is what we did. And then this is what we did. And it's like the sort of a stereotypical way in which, you know, Parents will talk about their teens coming home and telling the story. And then he said, and then she said, and then he said, and then she said, right? But teaching is about like giving the context, right? Here's the options we were considering, right? At the time, it wasn't obvious. We went this way. Here's why we went this way, as opposed to going this other direction. It's great storytelling. It's kind of bringing people in. And all of that can just be part of work. But it requires people being aware and conscious and being open to ask. So if they see somebody just presenting the what, For somebody in the back of the room, could be a senior leader, could be somebody else saying, I'd love it if you just kind of take us into what was in your head in the moment and what were all the other things that you were thinking and how you ended up going. And all of a sudden, we shift from I've got a presentation to, oh, I'm actually teaching. So I think that's a big part of it is building those routines, making it a norm, not have it be this thing that gets done at this particular point. place. There's a lot of components

Jocelyn Allen:

to it that have to do with if we're talking about a first step and part of this is meeting people where they're at and identifying who those influencers are within your organization that can provide that expertise. There's 60 different directions any one organization can take to get started. But the identity and understanding what it is that your organization needs to follow through with, I think it is part of the foundation of where we get started. And, you know, that's a big lift. So I appreciate your well thought out answer. And if there's anybody who doesn't do conciseness, it's me. So you're among your people here, okay?

Speaker 02:

That's good to hear.

Jocelyn Allen:

So in the past, if we're going back to kind of like the basics here from that past question, you've also said that foundationally, two of the most important things to have when it comes to teaching and learning amongst your peers in this way is humility and a mutual respect. It seems maybe a little self-explanatory, but let's talk a little bit more about why you found that those are so important in fostering this culture of experts to lead experts.

Joel Podolny:

So to me, yeah, humility and respect are foundational for curiosity. And to just echo maybe a point I was making before, I mean, I think... the most effective teachers are the ones who are truly curious in the moment of teaching, right? Like if I ask a question, I really want to know like, like what, people are going to answer. Not like I want to know the answer. I mean, presumably, as I was preparing teaching, I have the answer written down somewhere. But I want to know what they're going to answer, and I want to know why. And I'm particularly intrigued when I'm surprised. And I think that's what leads to a great kind of teaching and learning culture is one where you can just feel the curiosity in how people interact with one another you can feel when people make a statement and they're pausing not because they want to move on but they really want to know like okay how do you react to what i just said like how does that hit you how does that strike you what does that make you think of and If people don't have humility around their expertise, if they don't have a respect for others who don't have their expertise, it's almost impossible for them to have that level of curiosity to really elevate the learning experience and then more broadly the learning culture.

John Laverdure:

I'm very curious your perspective, Joel, We've had a lot of evolution of technology in the last several years. I mean, it never stops, but we certainly hit certain milestones, generative AI being one of those. And with all that, with all those dynamics at play, how do you see the roles of teaching and learning evolving in organizations over the next decade? So

Joel Podolny:

for me personally and for Honor Education as a company, One of the things that we regard as like foundational and central is transformational learning requires human connection. In part, we've been talking about that, right? Like what makes somebody a great teacher is we could have said it a slightly different way than we did, but it is about that connection. When I think about like the learning experiences that have been most transformative in my life, So, yeah. My worry, let me give my worry first, John. My worry is that what technology has been doing for a while is it's been driving us into these almost hyper-personalized silos, right? Where on the one hand, it's great. You can get kind of anywhere, anytime access to content. And now you can get anywhere access to content and you can... have a conversation with your own chat bot who's going to be completely obsequious and tell you how smart you are and kind of all the rest in terms of how you understand things. But my worry is that, and again, this is based on my own experience, for me, like the greatest learning experience that I've had is when I bump into somebody who thinks differently from me, who perceives differently than me, who understands something differently than me. And I, you know, what we're committed to at Honor is weaving that human connection into learning. And I think the need to focus on that now is even more more important than, honestly, when I started the company a few years ago because of what AI has become. And on the one hand, it is absolutely one of the most empowering technologies that I have experienced in my lifetime. So I am hardly a critic. And at the same time, I think we need to be really mindful of And I suspect most people resonate with that observation that the most significant learning in your life has had connection to other individuals as part of it. And so how do we build our technological infrastructure in a company to make sure that I'm staying connected to other learners as I'm on my own learning journey and that that That to me is really critical, but it requires intentionality for all of us who are in the learning and development profession, because the natural tendency is going to be to move in the other direction. Like just here, you can have the content when you want it, where you want it. Here's your chat bot to have the conversation with it. And then you're kind of in your own, own echo chamber.

John Laverdure:

Yeah, there was, there was a huge step towards that. Even, even as search engines became very complex. quick and easy to look things up on a moment's notice, and we just turn the dial up to 10 with AI. We know AI is all about the prompts, and we're offering the prompts, right? So it very much does become an echo chamber and rife with biases just in that regard.

Joel Podolny:

Yeah, I mean, without kind of going into too many of the details of it, but to tie it back to where this conversation started, I'm convinced that the reason I got the job at Apple University when Steve was interviewing me was we started having a conversation about higher education. And I told him one thing that changed the way he– I don't know if it changed. That's probably a little bit too much. I don't know if it changed the way he thought about it, but it gave him something to think about that he had not had the opportunity to– have presented to him in the particular way. And because after that moment, it completely changed the conversation. It was like, you have these moments in an interview where you're like, oh, I think I've got the job now. Like, that was the moment when it was like, oh, you've now given me... And he was such a voracious learner, like, as I would come to know later. Like, it even convinced me more, like... he was looking for that. Like, give me something that I don't already think. Give me something that I don't already know. Give me something that I can't find out on my own, right? Because if I can find out, like, what do I need you for? And that's a particularly proactive version of it. But I think that's true about all of us. Like, I absolutely lean in when I hear from somebody who, like, wow, they are thinking about this completely differently than me. I mean, they could be a hundred percent wrong, but like, at least in the beginning, I'm like, okay, this is interesting now. I mean, if they're just kind of parroting what I already believe, like, again, it is a little bit of a waste of time. And, and, and I think what we've got, that's again, why at Honor we're, we make that collective engagement so central to the, to the, to the digital learning experience. Cause we, we, we just, We're just really concerned that the way the world's evolving, that's going to be forgotten. And anyway, I think keep going.

John Laverdure:

Well, chances are if you engage Steve Jobs, you probably engaged a strong cross-section of Apple. So probably a good move on his part to bring you on board. So awesome. So as far as it would be cool to have a takeaway for some HR and L&D leaders listening today, what would you say is one piece of advice that you could give to help them build a culture where teaching and learning are really at the core of their organizations?

Joel Podolny:

So maybe to just put what I just said in kind of a simple statement, I mean, one, prioritize connection and learning, right? Like whether or not that's connection between the instructor and the learners. And what do I mean by connection? I mean, it's truly a dialogue, right? Like I have the opportunity if I've got questions to have those questions answered if I'm a learner. and meaningfully answered. If I can be really excited, really curious, and then I've got a whole bunch of questions, but you're basically told, oh, sorry, we don't have time for that, or we don't have the way for you to access that, you can go do your own internet search. To me, that would completely undermine the learning culture, and conversely, prioritized connection, and I think it elevates it. And so we tend to focus so much on the content. And I think what we miss sometimes is the importance of community around that content. And so that would be number one. I think the second is, if you want a great learning culture, you do need a great teaching culture. Because what ultimately makes an organization great, not just good, but great, is that they really focus on what is distinct and unique about them. And if you're just pulling in learning content from the outside world that anybody else could have access to, as opposed to building your own repository of expertise, experience, wisdom, and insight, there's only so high you can go relative to what's there. What I loved about Apple and Apple University was Apple basically said to us, we want and we need you to create content that works for Apple. Meaning, If you were in another company, you'd be building something else. We want you building what's unique to us. And so that then requires, one, giving those who are involved in learning exposure to the company and the decisions that are made and the whys behind the whats and all the rest. It requires having a and a technological infrastructure that supports that teaching culture. And then it does require these aspects of culture, the humility that we talked about. But to really focus on community, really focus on how do we teach who we uniquely are when we're at our best, like that's to me what makes for great learning.

Jocelyn Allen:

I love how much regarding connection that you put into your explanation there, because I believe in that. We deal with that every day, that it's not just about content on a page. It's about the engagement factor that comes from being good at what you do, but also bringing relevance to the table as well. So I love that you're leaning in on the connection there, because I think that's a huge missing piece of what makes learning different organization to organization.

Joel Podolny:

I'm glad that resonates.

Jocelyn Allen:

Yeah, I do. I'm all about the connections here. You know what I'm also all about is putting a little playful spin on the end of the show. And I'm drawing it out, Joel, because I want to hype you up.

Joel Podolny:

I've heard. I'm getting ready. I

Jocelyn Allen:

know you're ready for it, my dude. So with that, David, I think you have a theme song for the TTA 10 that you're supposed to play right about now.

David Yas:

It's the TTA 10. 10 final questions for our guest.

Jocelyn Allen:

All right, Joel, you know what this is all about. We talked to the beginning about how I'm going to ask you 10 playful questions. Dave is going to put 90 seconds on the clock. You answer them as naturally, as quickly as possible. And whether you win or lose, we don't care. We're going to celebrate you at the end anyway. So it's all in the name of good fun. So are you ready for the challenge ahead?

Joel Podolny:

Hold on one sec.

Unknown:

Okay.

Joel Podolny:

All right, I'm ready.

Jocelyn Allen:

Now you're ready. David, 90 seconds on the clock, please.

David Yas:

Yes, Jocelyn, 90 seconds on the TTA 10 clock beginning now.

Jocelyn Allen:

Okay, would you rather give up coffee forever or give up social media forever?

Joel Podolny:

Oh, social media, no problem.

Jocelyn Allen:

I know, me too. Would you rather wear shoes that are one size too small or one size too big all the time?

Joel Podolny:

One size too big.

Jocelyn Allen:

Yeah. Okay. What is six plus two? Eight. Oops. Sorry. My computer froze. Okay. If your life had a theme song, every time you entered a room, what would the song be?

Joel Podolny:

We're going to get way past the 90 seconds on this one. I can't, can't always get what you want rolling stones. That's what's in my mind.

Jocelyn Allen:

If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?

Joel Podolny:

My superpower would be not being able to go on relatively little sleep. Yeah, that's my superpower.

Jocelyn Allen:

All right. Would you rather go on a vacation beachside or mountainside?

Joel Podolny:

Mountainside.

Jocelyn Allen:

Okay. If you could learn every language on the planet or be able to talk to animals, which would you choose?

Joel Podolny:

100% animals. I really would love to know what my cats are thinking all the

Jocelyn Allen:

time.

Joel Podolny:

Yeah, that one's easy.

Jocelyn Allen:

What is a talent that nobody knows that you have?

Joel Podolny:

Nobody knows? I'm a really good baker. I mean, my wife knows, but I don't think a lot

Jocelyn Allen:

of people know. Okay. What's a weird food that you love but everybody else hates?

Joel Podolny:

Everybody hates it. Okra?

Jocelyn Allen:

Okay. What's the last book that you read?

Joel Podolny:

The last book that I read was Robert Cairo's The Power Broker.

Jocelyn Allen:

Okay. And then if you could switch lives with any celebrity, who would you choose?

Joel Podolny:

What popped into my head was George Clooney, but I don't know why.

Jocelyn Allen:

Okay. Hey, listen, that's okay. You don't have to have a good reason. You just got to have an answer. So with that, David, 10 questions complete. I mean, I've been looking at the clock, so we know the answer, but let's give this guy a celebration, shall we?

David Yas:

Hold on. Hold on. The time came in that unclear, but we had to adjust it because Jocelyn got confused as to what two plus six was. And also he gets... Bonus deduction because I was going to say George Clooney, too. It popped into my head. So that's where it's at. So he came in. You know what? He won. That's the

Speaker 02:

answer. Yay, Joel!

David Yas:

Yay! And because he's a winner, of course he's a winner. He's Joel Podolny. We're going to salute him appropriately. And everybody enjoy this musical tribute, an ode to Joel. We'll be right back. he built apple you like a hogwarts for brains with keynote spells and leadership lanes he said let's not hoard all this knowledge gold let's share it like snacks before it gets old he's the master of mutual respect got mbas nodding correct correct he'll empower your talent and sharpen your aim and make your slack channel Bye. Bye. Bye. the good stuff yeah joel paul me he'll school you with love yeah joel paul me he'll school you with love oh about that

Jocelyn Allen:

wow Joel, I realize it was very unfair to ask you about your theme song before that song played. So now you obviously have a better answer, but...

Joel Podolny:

Yeah. Wow. I, I, I, I've never had a surprise party thrown for me, but like, I feel like I now know the

Jocelyn Allen:

feeling. And now, you know, six different ways to produce, to pronounce your last name. We

David Yas:

did that on purpose just to keep everybody guessing.

Jocelyn Allen:

Oh, goodness, Joel, you are a delight. So thank you for spending the time with us and giving us all this great information. It was a pleasure and we appreciate you sharing it with our audience. So thank you. Thanks again. And we look forward to having you back sometime.

Joel Podolny:

Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. It was a real pleasure. I look forward to the next time we connect. Thank you so much, Joel. Take care.

Jocelyn Allen:

For more information on building a culture of teaching and learning in your organization, visit us at thetrainingassociates.com. We'll see you later.