Bring Out the Talent: A Learning and Development Podcast

Navigating Change Management

• Maria Melfa & Jocelyn Allen • Season 6 • Episode 5

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In an era where change is constant, mastering change management is crucial for organizational success. In fact, a McKinsey report found that 73% of organizations fail to achieve substantial returns on their change management investments, highlighting the need for effective leadership during transitions. In this episode of 'Bring Out the Talent,' we welcome longtime TTA partner Joe Jordan. As a speaker, corporate trainer, author, and business advisor, Joe has spent over 30 years helping companies worldwide accelerate business transformation and enhance performance. 

In this conversation, Joe will share his insights on change management and communication, equipping you with the knowledge to guide your organization through change. If you're looking to steer your company toward sustained growth and success amidst the uncertainty of change, you won't want to miss this episode.

SPEAKER_03:

Welcome

SPEAKER_01:

to Bring Out the Talent, a podcast featuring learning and development experts discussing innovative approaches and industry insights. Tune in to hear our talent help develop yours. Now here are your hosts, GTA's CEO and President Maria Melfa and Talent Manager Jocelyn Allen.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, our dance moves have certainly got better since this morning. This morning, I don't even think we did any dance moves this

SPEAKER_02:

morning. We did a light bop this morning. It was a little weird. But are you sure? Because based on David's reaction to the dancing, I feel like he doesn't think it was our best. And I just like, what's up? You got something to say or?

SPEAKER_01:

As long as you're expressing yourself in whatever that was, then I celebrate it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's what I thought. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03:

And just think, David's the one who picked out our intro music, so... And that's a decision he's regretted every

SPEAKER_02:

day

SPEAKER_03:

since. Exactly. You are to blame.

SPEAKER_01:

And I have footage of you dancing, and I will use it if I

SPEAKER_03:

need to. Oh, boy. See? You scarred me with my blooper reel. And

SPEAKER_02:

we're just giving him more stuff to add. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, boy. Hey, well, we're very excited for our topic and more excited for our guest, who is a long-term partner who we'll introduce in one moment. But let's get started. Where constant change is the only constant, the mastery of change management has become a cornerstone of organizational success and resilience. A recent McKinsey report highlights that 73% of organizations fail to achieve substantial returns on their change management investments, highlighting the complexity and necessity of leading effectively through transitions. In this episode, we are welcome again by our longtime TTA partner, Joe Jordan. Joe is an accomplished speaker, trainer, author, business advisor, master Tupperware distributor. Joe has spent over 30 years helping companies around the world accelerate business transformation and enhance individual performance. And guess which one was not true in there? The leadership.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

No, it was the Tupperware. If this was the TTA-10, I'd be failing. Okay. Joe has worked with many of the Fortune 100 companies and has worked with different companies from all industries, such as AT&T, Dell, IKEA, KPMG, McKinzen, and Microsoft, just to name a few. Joe will share his expert insights on leadership development, critical thinking, change management, communication, equipping us with knowledge to navigate our organizations through the challenging yet rewarding process of change. Welcome, Joe.

SPEAKER_05:

Thank you, Maria and Jocelyn and David. It's a privilege to be with you today. It's been looking forward to this for a long time.

SPEAKER_03:

We have too. It's about time you join us. You were afraid, but we're glad to have you.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, thanks. I finally got on your dance card. I'm glad for that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, absolutely. So, Jo, with over 30 years of experience that you have helping companies with their business transformations, what would you say are some of the key components of a change management strategy that you found essential for the success of creating these business transformations?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I've had the wonderful privilege of being part of some change management experiences that were immensely successful and the kind of things you look back on with great gratitude that you got to be part of it. And I've been part of a few that didn't go quite as planned, Jocelyn. And I think, and this sounds sort of almost cliche-ish, yet it is true, number one thing that I think is critical in a change management process that has to be led from the top. And I don't mean kind of sort of from the top. I mean from the top. Meaning if we really want to lead change in an organization, the CEO or senior most person champions it. They are the person who makes sure, doesn't necessarily tie to it directly, but they're making sure things are getting implemented. If there are questions, they're making sure they're getting handled. And there's no question in anyone's mind that this is something they are driving. I had the wonderful privilege last, just last week, I think it was, I was with a large apparel organization and had a of their leaders, I think, thereabouts, in a training program for about four hours. As is typical of the case, the CEO got up, she introduced, or the brand manager, or brand president, I should say. We can correct that. Brand president got up, and she introduced the program, as often they do the case. And then instead of leaving, she sat down at a table, she participated in the discussion, she took notes, and She commented during the workshop, and there was absolutely no question in anyone's mind that what they were doing there that day she cared about. That's change management that works, where she's not coming in, okay, folks, I think this is really important, but I have more important things to do, that they're leading it from the top. Number two is, and Harvard mentions this, and I had a great article called Transformations That Work in their last issue, and they were talking about some of the same things you used in the introduction, Maria, and They found there that it's critical that you prioritize the energy that's required for it, that you make sure you've got the energy to do it and that that energy doesn't get diluted. I worked last year with an organization, joined them in January to do a strategic planning session to help them identify what are the four things we have to do to make it this year. So we identified it, got those nailed down, everything was on track. Then the CEO and his leadership team met seven months later and they asked me to join them. And... It's sort of, how do you tell somebody their baby's ugly? We're sitting in the room and the CEO, we've worked through all of this kind of, how are we doing on these four things? And then they said, okay, let's take a look at the PMO. The guy who managed the PMO gets up and they still had 30 projects in flight in their project management office. And I'm going, you can't have four things you got to fix and 30 things you're still messing around. You've got to prioritize the energy. So that's the third one. And then I think Probably the most, or second one rather, the most important thing that gets forgotten in this process is that leaders must maintain the expectation and the pressure on the organization until the change is realized. And that sounds really cruel and harsh and hard and all that. It's not. It's just, you know that as I know it. If you want to change a behavior, you need to keep the pressure on until it becomes internalized. And organizations often don't do that, and people revert back to what makes them feel stable, what makes them feel at a point of sort of emotional homeostasis, and they don't implement the new change. So those are kind of the three things. It's the leadership piece, the energy piece, and then keeping the pressure on until it gets done.

SPEAKER_03:

Those are all excellent points. How many change management initiatives do you feel are not successful because they didn't keep up with the energy or the third part that you talk about. They do a really good job talking to all the people involved, explaining the why, getting people involved. But then after things start moving, they think, okay, great, we got this. And then we're on to something new and we forget about it.

SPEAKER_05:

Again, my world's not as big as the whole world, Maria. And from my experience, everyone that hasn't worked, that's been a component of it. Every time, at whatever level. I remember one case where the person that needed to have the pressure kept on them was one of the senior executives, but they didn't. And consequently, they reverted the change and everything went back to the way life was. And so I think from my experience, if I'm standing here today and thinking about it, every time it didn't work, that was a component.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I could see that. And I know that I've been guilty. At that because you assume because there's been so much conversation, you've had so many meetings, you've been very visible about things and the change and what we want this change to do for us. And then you again go on to something else and then you realize, okay, well, maybe we didn't have full adoption there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

That's where I think the prioritizing the energy component is critical to recognize, OK, we can't change everything at once and we can't probably keep doing all the things we were doing if we really want to make this dramatic organizational change. And you may even get it at certain levels, but I've seen it at senior most levels in the organization where, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're making the change and then they don't. And it took the CEO or the COO in some cases stepping in and saying, if I can make a priority for this, you will make it a priority and we will make this change. And I remember one of the senior executives in the company coming and speaking in the class I was leading. And one day he got up and he opens his mouth. I'm going, there's nothing coming out of this man's mouth that aligns with where we're going. And I was a little bit aghast. And then the next time he came and he spoke, he had the exact opposite message. I was going, okay, dad talked to him. And I think that was a great example, though, of the leader going, no, you're not allowed to do this. This is where we're going. Either get on board or go somewhere else and play because this is where we're going. And I so admire that leader for doing that because the person he reined in was not the easiest guy to play the terrain.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. Now, I mean, just in the last five minutes, I can see a lot of change that we have had that did change. not go as successful because of that, because not following it to the end, keeping the energy. And it's very interesting. And another thing that I always find fascinating is what constitutes a change. Because sometimes you hire, it could be just the simple thing as hiring a new employee. And that in itself could be a change. So I know in the past we've hired people. It's like, great, we onboard this person. We have them meet with all the different departments. They go through the training. And you don't realize how much impact or change that has had on other employees. So in that case, I never handled it as like a change management initiative. But yet to all the other employees, it seemed great. so much more greater than I imagined. And I know that's just a small example, but I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes you don't even know what constitutes a change for other people because to you, it seems very small.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Well, as you're talking, my analogy I use with mergers and acquisitions, I said an M&A is sort of mom and dad decide we're going to get married and that's real cool for them. Now the kid's got to sort it out. And I think what you're talking about there, if you adopted a child into your family, and I'm not saying work as a family, don't take the analogy too far. But if you adopted a kid into your family, you wouldn't say, okay, kids, welcome, Johnny, let's all get used to it. There'd be some real exerted effort on how are we going to integrate this dude into this system that we have. And that's exactly what happens every time you make a hire. You're integrating another entity into an established system. And that rocks it at a lot of different levels.

SPEAKER_02:

Very

SPEAKER_03:

good analogy.

SPEAKER_02:

He's full of them. I know. It's good stuff. It's so timely, like you said, Maria, because I think that there's a lot of companies going through change right now, period. Because if we think about our economy right now and decisions that people are making based on that, how much that has changed from three months ago, that those decisions that were made, we look at those... Things and say, OK, now what? In order to kind of like bring that back. Right. We're seeing so many companies do it because they've gone from we have to let this people go. Do we need contractors? Do we backfill somebody permanent? Do we do this? Do we upstand a new leadership program at this time because we lost this person because of a like you're right, that one simple thing that is just, oh, we have. one person who got promoted. So now we need to fill their position. That's a change. And that could be a very dramatic one at that. But you don't realize it until you realize that, oh, putting this person who was an individual contributor into a leadership role and now replacing this with a completely different individual contributor. And we move them up because they were so successful. So in order to make this successful and all work, this person has to be as good as they were. Like, how is that? That's not simple at all. Nothing simple about that. And it's right. You have to understand that that's what It means,

SPEAKER_03:

because again, if every little thing is considered a change and has such an impact, do you need to have change management for every single decision you make? We wouldn't have time. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_05:

And again, it comes down to the extent that you invest in. It's just the recognition of, again, I talk about that in change management programs, that We, by nature, our body seeks a level of equilibrium and homeostasis. So if the room gets hot, you're going to start perspiring. If the room gets cold, you start shivering. Your body is designed to create that equilibrium for you. Our emotional systems are designed to do the same. And so you institute a change in my world. I'm naturally going to try to find ways to stabilize that consciously or unconsciously. And the fastest, easiest way I can stabilize is resist your change. I think, just don't let it happen to me. I loved when I was in one organization, I shouldn't say loved, I hated it, but I smile into it, that I remember calling someone's voicemail a year after we were acquired by another company. And their voicemail said, hi, this is so-and-so still at, and they said the name of the former company. Which to me is that wonderful phrase of just because everything's different doesn't mean anything changed. You should just continue to stay where they are. That's how they created stability for themselves.

SPEAKER_02:

It is funny though, because those little things could be, is it that they were like, oh, just don't worry about it. It doesn't matter. Or is it that they're not thinking about it, right? Both of which are things that you deal with when you're learning about change management and addressing that issue at hand like what are the things that you're not thinking about and what are the things that people aren't doing because they seem so small and therefore not impactful but if you're an organization of 5,000 people and all but 75 people kept their signature the same yes right we have we have a problem here or whatever it is the voicemail that you that you were that you were talking about yeah it can be a little thing can can become a big thing we see it happen all the time

SPEAKER_04:

Yes,

SPEAKER_03:

we certainly have done a lot of large change management initiatives after M&A for like a technology implementation. And those are very obvious. I guess what we're talking about right now is these little changes that you don't realize have so much of an impact. I guess we're talking about all of it, but to me, it's always interesting because I've, again, noticed in these 30 years that sometimes I haven't made it a priority to... figure out a clear plan on these small initiatives.

SPEAKER_05:

As we know, life is... I wrote something recently on LinkedIn that someone taught me early in my career, duties never conflict. And that sounded so good and it sounded so cool. And I quoted that and then I realized as I grew up, I have duties that... I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm a friend. I'm a business owner. And those things are colliding like every day in my life. And I think that's where the change thing comes in. I'm going, okay, these are going to keep colliding. Which one am I going to let collide over quietly in the corner so I can make these other two hit and have atomic fusion or whatever and out of it create the dynamic thing we're trying to accomplish?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So there's a lot of crucial components when we talk about change management is because we talk about these big things, the things that are maybe a bit more clear as you talk about, OK, I need change management. I'm recognizing that there's a lot of things happening right now and I need some help controlling it. But what about change? There's once you figure that out or once you recognize that this is something that you want to pursue, there's so many other layers to it. And you need to ensure that you are getting what you need in all those crucial phases in order to move forward. So like one of those things is always for us when we are looking at change management, it's it's buy in. Right. It's stakeholder buy in. It's meeting with them and addressing the change with them and getting their perspective. But then it's also everybody else at the organization. What do the employees think? What do they know about the change? So what are some techniques that you have found have been really successful in getting that information, getting that buy-in and making sure that the crucial points from stakeholders through to frontline, that everybody's bought in and understanding what's about to happen? I

SPEAKER_05:

think there's... Three principles that I used to guide that. Let me hit those and then I'll talk specifically if I could, Jocelyn. Three principles that kind of guide me continuously around this change thing is number one, remembering people embrace change at whatever level. When their discomfort with the current situation exceeds their fear of change. So I have to make the current environment uncomfortable enough so that you want to embrace the change. Our doctors do that. Our coaches do that. So I have to make it uncomfortable enough so you want to embrace change. And number two is we need to, as we're engaging people, never underestimate a person's ability to resist and avoid a greatly needed change. So we know that in our personal lives, we have this wonderful way of avoiding something we know we don't want to do. And the third thing that I've discovered is people generally don't stop a behavior until you help them release the need for the behavior. Because none of us do anything unless we think it gets us to a better spot than we were in before we did it. And so if people are resisting change or people are doing things counter to where we're trying to go at whatever level, board level on down an organization, I think fundamental to that is help them recognize this behavior no longer gets me where I thought it was getting me. So alleviate their need for the behavior. At a senior level, board level, again, I think we have to make the case that for the impact on the business drivers. And if we can't, then I think the board and senior leaders have every reason in the world to push back. If you can't tell me how it's going to help us generate cash, how it's going to increase profitability, how it's a better use of our assets, it's going to help us grow the business or be a better use of our people assets, then If I can be very crass at a board level, don't bother me with it because that's what we're here to do. And I think organizations need to recognize, back to that prioritization, there are five things that determine our success, and I just rattle them off. If it's not going to affect those, we're going to have a very difficult time engaging the board and senior leaders because if they're doing their jobs, that's what they care about. As we look at people across the organization, I think that's where we need to move it to a very personal level. where I help folks recognize how it's going to help them achieve their personal professional goals, help them recognize how the change will genuinely create greater opportunities for them. And if we can make that connection, I think candidly, if we can't make that connection, if it's not going to, then maybe they won't fit the new world. There have been more than one time in my life where I've had to sit down and say, okay, Have I outlived my usefulness to this organization? Now, that's not a poor me thing. That's not a, oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? It's just simply recognizing I fit this organization at a point in time. Do I fit it where it is now? Do I fit it where it's going to be in the next, you know, one year, two year, five years? And I think that's the reality for people. I was doing a program with a sort of a strategic planning session with an organization recently, and there were people in the room that candidly, I'm not sure will fit who the organization is becoming. So we can help them see where there's opportunities. And if they don't want to embrace the new identity of what their role is going to be in the new world, I didn't think our best thing and nicest thing and most gracious thing we can do is help them find a new opportunity somewhere where they can bring them. So I think at the senior level, it's a business drivers at a lower level. It's more personal connection. And then at the same time in that personal level, Jocelyn, I think it's helping folks understand they have a responsibility to those five business drivers. So if they don't care about them, candidly, then I'm not sure they're a good fit for the organization either, because this isn't a hobby. We are here to generate cash, to be profitable, to grow the business, to manage our assets and take care of our people. That's the game that we're in. So connecting at a personal level, yes. And not though at the personal level where we're so concerned about that, that they fail to realize that you have to really contribute to what we're trying to do or this isn't going to be a good match for us long term. That can sound really crass and unkind, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm lacking compassion. It's just the reality.

SPEAKER_03:

Not at all. I know exactly what you're talking about. I agree. Unfortunately, because we've had good employees that we've had to part ways with because they were not on board. And for whatever reason, I think more so because it was taking more time for them to understand and to learn new things and they just didn't want to do it. So I certainly understand what you're saying. But the problem is if you don't decide to part ways, obviously on a good note, then it will affect the rest of the company and bring morale down and other people not getting on board. So it's a hard but necessary decision.

SPEAKER_05:

I think there are five questions, Maria, that we've got to be able to answer. So if I'm going to lead change at any point along the way, and you say, Joe, why is this going on? I need to be able to say, Maria, we're making this change because, and I tell you, when it's complete, the change is going to result in, and I talk about those business drivers, the opportunity for you, whatever, and I say the change is necessary because... And I give you that clear picture. And I'm able to say, now what this means for you is this. And if we don't do it, this is what's going to happen. And I think those five questions are really fundamental. And if I'm a leader in an organization, I ought to kind of have those five and the answers to them going through my mind. And they're going to change. As the change process evolves, they will change a little bit. That's okay. They're going to evolve as well. I just think we're story people. And we live on stories. So I need to have the story of change running off my lips at any turn. So if you catch me in the hallway at any time, you say, Joe, what's going on? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. I can walk through the five dimensions of that and give you the answer.

SPEAKER_02:

And I agree with Maria where she said that it wasn't all that harsh. I think that maybe when you just look at it kind of on paper, like those words, it's like, oh, wow. That was that was a lot, Joe. Right. But at the end of the day, and maybe I'll even make it more dramatic for you. Right. It's like the good the do we think about the good of the masses or the good of the one? You know what I mean? Like, what's the reason why we're hesitating if that's what it is at that point in time where we've had we've talked about those five points and this person still isn't on board for either the reasons that Maria mentioned. Right. Like. that change takes time. And so are they investing the time or do they care? Do they not understand? Like what is the reason, right? But are we essentially like feeling bad And then saying like, this is, it's really harsh for somebody who is a really good person who could do well to like say, this isn't the right fit for you anymore because you're not on board with me. But it's really like you're catering, you're holding back that individual for maybe finding something better for themselves if this isn't their vision. But two, you're also letting your organization succumb to the one individual. And that's a recipe for failure. Like there's, It doesn't make sense to do it any other way. And I think people as individuals do realize that, too, because on the on the other side of that type of a decision, people can digest it and understand that it is for the betterment of everybody.

SPEAKER_05:

That's not always a lower performing person to your point. I was in an organization a number of years ago earlier in my career. where we were doing a massive organizational cultural change and all the right kinds of things where we're going, yes, we want to grow, we want to perform, and we want you to have a life. And we don't want you living here day in and day out and night and morning and everything else. One of our top performing managers in the company. So top seller, top manager, one of our most prominent offices refused to get on board with this, would not make the change. And she was transitioned out of the organization. So we're not talking about taking somebody deep in the bowels of the company who doesn't get on board. We're taking, and I admired this CEO immensely for she said, no, you may be one of the best performing people in the company, but it's not who we are anymore. And if you can't make this change, it ain't going to work for us. And

SPEAKER_02:

she transitioned her out of the company. Sometimes it's just, it is, it's just a necessary thing to happen. And you're right. All of the credit goes to the leaders. We're being actual leaders here. And showing the rest of their organization that this is real and I want to make change for good. And that includes what may need to happen because of it.

SPEAKER_05:

People listening to this are going to say, okay, this

SPEAKER_02:

Jordan guy is like the

SPEAKER_03:

TTA Axeman. I'm sure most people that listen to this can relate.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but then that's the other thing too. Like we like to talk about the hard stuff. Like I used to make this joke a couple episodes ago where I'd be like, I'll be the devil's advocate now because we would talk about all the wonderful things that like change management can do, which is what we're getting towards, right? But it doesn't come without people who are listening surely going, okay, yeah, in your dream world, that's how it works, right? But here's what I got going on at my place and how the heck do you expect me to even get started with that? We got to talk about all of it because it is, it's like change is the hardest thing. Every, like we talked about in the beginning, it doesn't, it's not even necessarily have to be the central focus of what you're doing. Like I want my people to learn about change management. So that's the topic of the day. It's based on a change that you're making and you need to manage it around it. So by the time you get to it, it's already happening. Right. So whether it's, it happens successfully or it takes a lot of time to get through it it is always it is the one thing that's always around us that people need to learn to either get on board with or move on from based on whatever is best for them and that's like the them includes individuals and a them is a company too

SPEAKER_03:

yes exactly absolutely Joe, can you give us some practical advice on how leaders can keep the communication clear, keep motivation going throughout the process?

SPEAKER_05:

I think one of the things that I've found, Maria, is during a time of change, you cannot over communicate. It's impossible to say too much. The reason is if I don't tell you what's going on, your brain's going to make it up. And then when I finally do get around to telling you what's going on, I've got to dislodge your version of reality because your brain's not going to tell you something that's not true. And so now I've got to convince you what I'm telling you is the truth, not what your brain made up about the situation. So the communication, I think, has to be transparent, meaning we tell the truth at all times. At the same time, that doesn't mean we have to tell everyone everything we know about everything all the way along. You can't. During a merger and acquisition, we just can't disclose everything, especially in a public company or something like that. At the same time, I need to be communicating frequently, and there should never be a question about the truthfulness of what's coming out of my mouth as a leader. I think one of the ways that leaders can communicate really empower that process. And I've seen that done in two different organizations I've had privilege of being part of. And that is, I sound like I'm singing to the choir at this moment, but I think it's true. And that is use training. as a voice to the change. I've seen that done very, very successfully in two organizations where one, it was a smaller company. We built what we were trying to do from a change standpoint into our training courses. Another organization where it was a much larger organization and massive change effort going on where again, the CEO created, we did a four day executive leadership program and people were immersed in understanding, know that you were kind of free to do what you wanted to up to this point. that's no longer scalable. This is who we're becoming. This is how we're going to operate. And so there was a huge investment, we're talking millions of dollars probably invested in that thing, to make sure that we got that change done there. So I think it's the communicating frequently. And one of the easiest ways is just use the normal processes, the ways we operate, training, et cetera, to communicate and facilitate that change. I think whether it's a blog or podcast or whatever company uses, help folks begin to see it's working. We've been on this journey because I think sometimes what happens is you get on a change journey. It's like, okay, over the next two years, we're going to evolve to blah, blah, blah. And everybody's waiting for the two-year point when we're there. No, show them, okay, we're not there yet, but we're here. We're not there yet and we're here so that they see that we've made some progress along the way. It's doing a weight loss program or a fitness program, whatever. Yeah. Okay. I can't bench press X, but I can bench press more than I did yesterday. That's the thing we've got to celebrate with people. So I think it's really creating those opportunities to celebrate through the communication vehicles used in the organization can be a critical part of it as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Hear, hear to that. I think that communicating even the small changes, right? Like you just said, like my goal might be to bench press 300, but I started at 200 and now I'm at 210, right? Like it, that's a huge, that's progress. Like I think that people in any scenario forget to check their progress versus being like, okay, I'm not at the end result yet. I'm not there. And it's, the least important part to me. Is the end goal going to be the same once you start getting into it and seeing what results from the change? Maybe not. Is that one of the obstacles that you think that people face a lot? Is that they get hung up on the end goal versus celebrating the small wins? What other things come up that leaders are essentially facing when it comes to the obstacles that can affect overcoming change?

SPEAKER_05:

I think you're right on with the first one, Jocelyn, is helping folks realize we're making progress. We aren't there. We're making progress. No, we're not the market dominator that we want to be. And we're also not the little kid getting pushed around on the playground anymore. And so helping folks recognize that difference. So that's a critical piece. And I think part of it too is creating realistic expectations. As you were talking, I just worked out this morning earlier, I've been working out throughout most of my adult life. I cannot bench press what I did when I was 25. I can't do in the gym what I did when I was 30. And you know what? I can still do something. And so I have to, at this stage in my life, create a realistic expectation. When I sit down on the bench press, it still feels good. I still love it. I'm a gym rat at heart. And I love that. You know what, though? I just have to kind of close my eyes and not look at the other kids in the playground. Because at my stage in life, the expectations have to be different. And I think that's for people during change, is let's create some realistic expectations. So, Jocelyn, we're not there yet. Okay, so what could you get around at this point? What could you find to celebrate in? What could you say, yeah, we got that done, so that you begin to see that there's some progress along the way? So I think it's breaking it in chunks. It's, again, though, keeping the focus. We're not going to have 30 projects floating on the side. We're going to say these four things we've got to keep focused on. Let's keep coming back to that. And it helps folks create what I call planned neglect, where you say, we're deliberately not doing that, Jocelyn. Yes, that is really, really important. And we're deliberately not going to do it right now. You were talking about earlier when we were chatting when we started, when you live in an old house in the Northeast, there's all kinds of things you want to do. And there's things you got to do and things we're going to do. And some of them are going to do five years from now. And that's what I think you need to help folks do along the way. But I think if you implement without leading, you put too much on people at one time, you don't underscore the critical things. And I think one of the pieces that really can help us get through those obstacles, and it's another piece I've seen over the years, is my experience is if you don't underscore what's not changing, it makes it much harder to embrace what is. In other words, keep bringing people back to, Jocelyn, our vision, our mission, our values, the principles to guide us. We haven't messed with any of that. That's all still here. We are still who we are. We just have to adapt to survive. And I keep bringing people back to the principles and the vision and the mission and all of those things that aren't changing. then you can let go of the way we've worked. And my experience is if I don't anchor you in those things, you're going to fight the other because that's all you got. If I don't show the principles and the values and all that, then all you have is the method. And that's where you're going to resist it because that's as good as our vision and values to you because that's all you see that there is. But if I can bring you to the bigger thing, then you can let folks see it. And I think one of the other obstacles is just simply not practicing what we're asking people to do. People have incredible hypocrisy meters in offices and companies, and especially the newer workforce. Okay, so I don't want to sound like some old crusty old guy because I'm not that. I spend most of my time with people 30 years younger than me. So I'm totally on page with them. The fact is they do have incredible hypocrisy barometers and meters and they can spot it a mile away. And if they're getting caught into a change thing and they're going, yeah, the leader's not doing it. Yeah, my leader's not doing it. Yeah, somewhere else across the organization, they're really not having to do that. It's not going to happen because they're going to, they just... They don't care if you don't like them. They don't care if you're not applauding them because they're self-actualized enough that, okay, you want me to do this, but you're not doing it. I'm not going to get on board with that. So there's just some of the basic things I think folks can do to anchor them. But I've found that one of the biggest things is, again, anchoring them in the stuff that's lasting, our values and all of that, much easier for them to let go of a change in the way we do

SPEAKER_03:

things. I love that. That's excellent. It is incredible. simple by nature because you know what your mission statement is, but that's definitely something that I believe a lot of companies overlook by bringing it back because every change should align to your mission statement and your values.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I was working with one company a few years ago where the CEO came in to a hundred and some year old company. It was an IT company. Dramatic change in the organization, culturally, the way they were working, all that. And one of the ways, again, he led it from the top, did all those things, and he funded it. There was no question about should we, can we, whatever. Oh, it's out of so-and-so's budget. And for the first two years of this initiative, he funded it out of his budget. And so there was no question that he cared about it. But it also kept people from trying to nickel and dime the thing along the way. Well, should we do this? Well, should we do it? It's part of the change thing. We've got to do it. And it was very, very successful.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, back to kind of what Maria said, where you're like, it's like you said, it seems so simple, right? Like, yeah, of course, drive your change back to your mission statement. What you're talking about, Joe, is like leading by example, right? Tale as old as time. You do the thing, people do the thing. Like I, there's this one point, it's a very, very simple thing and like not a big deal that affected anything, but it was at a previous employer where I was responsible for leading a team as well. And I was going over daily tasks, like something as simple as that. Here's what we have to do. And here are our due dates. So if you think you can categorize like four of these things. And my back was killing me, but we were on the floor, which was essentially customer facing. And I like kneeled over and I just like propped my elbows up so I could kind of like straighten my back and I was still talking. And three seconds after that, the person I was coaching got down on her elbows too. So she was like leaning with me in a customer facing scenario. And it wasn't until I saw her do it that I realized that I was doing it. And I was just kind of like, I was doing it for like temporary relief, but it was in that moment that I was like, holy cow, like every single thing that I do has to be something that I want them to do. Cause she was just like, oh, we're being casual. Cool. I'll be casual. I love to relax. And it like that moment, it was a teaching moment for me, even again, so so simple didn't change anything wouldn't have affected anything nobody would have cared but I was like I don't want you doing that so but like I just did it so I can't like tell you that I don't want you doing that yeah right leading by example is is huge is huge when it comes to anything but change more specifically no if you want people to do something 100% differently than the way that they've been doing it before and you stay the same no buy-in people are not going to get down with them

SPEAKER_05:

yeah I think that a fundamental piece with that to Jocelyn and Marie is the, and I learned this when I was doing career transition with work, I would think we'd agree. One of the most unwanted, impactful changes can happen in your life. When somebody says, hi, you're no longer to become part of our organization. And that was not your plan. And I discovered in that time, there's really two models that drove people. If my life is driven by fear during that kind of change, I'm going to expect security and I'm going to assign blame when I don't get it, which is going to lead me to try to control everything going on around me. And I'm going to mismanage relationships and create conflict. It's just, it's going to happen because I'm driven by fear. And I noticed that in people, people who are coming to that situation out of fear, they were blaming the company. They were going, I should have been there. That was my family and all that kind of stuff. They were trying to control things they couldn't control and et cetera. The folks who are driven by trust are They embraced the change. They accepted responsibility. I got to go find a new job now. Okay. They accepted that responsibility. They created freedom in their relationships and they maximized connectedness. They weren't hoarding the job leads. They were telling other people about them too, realizing there's an abundance here for us. And I saw such a dramatic difference. And I think that comes out in a change thing. If I create an environment of trust, it makes it a whole lot easier. If However we got there, there is at the core of the organization, a fear model driving people. It makes it much, much more difficult to lead through a change process. Can I tell one more story based on our little storm thing yesterday? I was thinking about this in preparation for our session that we had this big storm, windstorm situation in North Texas yesterday, and we have a lot of tree damage. And I was driving around and looking at the trees and I thought, why are some standing and some aren't? And I realized some of the trees that fell were young and immature and they didn't have any roots. There's nothing to rank and mount, so they're over. The thing that's interesting, though, is more damage was on the older, mature trees. And I realized they're anchored, they're rooted, and they're no longer flexible. And that struck me. The trees that are really damaged around us today are big and strong, and they've got a lot to them. Yet, unfortunately, in their age, they've lost their flexibilities. And they're the ones that fell apart and they're on people's houses and they're in the streets and they're on the roads and all of that. And I thought, well, so we need to be able to not withstand change to work through change is you need the roots, the values, the principles, and I need to maintain my flexibility. Otherwise I'm not going to be able to do it. So I had this wonderful illustration around me all over the place in North Texas. That's

SPEAKER_02:

a brilliant illustration. Beautiful analogy. Yeah. I say it all the time. I love real world stuff like that. When you can compare it to something as simple as that, where you're like, and then it's just, it makes you think you're like, wow, that really is what it is. It absolutely. It's a very cool picture to paint for sure.

SPEAKER_03:

No joke. As we wrap up our session today, what advice would you give to our audience that is going to go through significant change or are currently experiencing significant change?

SPEAKER_05:

On the humorous side, Maria, I'd say, okay, AI isn't going to fix it. Okay, so just to clarify, okay, folks, AI is a wonderful thing, but it ain't going to fix this. So let's just set that one aside. But seriously, number one, lead it from the top. And that's just... Keep coming back to it because it is so critical. It must be led, not driven, not forced, led by the top. Number two, communicate as much as you can at every turn during the process. Thirdly, engage everyone in it. Research tells us people get behind something if they have a voice in it, even if they don't get a vote. You have to have a voice. So engage people in that process at every level, including our customers. As we're going through a change, connecting with the customers, okay, how's this going for you? Because I think that's ideally why we're doing it. Thirdly, create the environment to support it. We've got that trust-based environment so people don't revert to their fear responses. And then number five, don't stop until it's internalized. And that's the thing that is critical. As much as it's important that I lead it, we've got to keep the energy on it until it becomes internalized. Now, if we could all do that easily, those five little things would make the world so much better, and we know it's not as easy as five little steps, yet those are the five I'd anchor it on and conclusion it.

SPEAKER_03:

Right on. I'm going to put those on my whiteboard. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02:

Five is definitely a good place to start, but you know what's even better? The TTA 10.

SPEAKER_01:

It's the TTA 10. Ten final questions for our guest.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, Joe, thank you so much for probably one of the best segues I might've ever had, but from the interview to the TTA 10, but as we discussed in the beginning of the show, I'm going to ask you 10 questions, rapid fire. They're playful, they're fun, and there's no right or wrong answer. We just want you to answer instinctively because it adds a playful aspect of the, to the podcast and lets the guests get to know you a little bit better. We're going to put 90 seconds on the clock. If you answer the questions in 90 seconds or less, David's going to have a special little ditty to celebrate you. Okay. And that is all in the name of good fun. Okay. So are you ready?

SPEAKER_05:

I'm ready. I'm bracing for it.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. He's ready for the change. David, 90 seconds, please.

SPEAKER_01:

90 seconds on the TTA 10 o'clock beginning now.

SPEAKER_02:

Joe, if you could trade lives with anyone for a single day to experience it, who would it be? Oh

SPEAKER_05:

my gosh, Jules Verne, because he flew all over the place. And I love hot air balloons.

SPEAKER_02:

What is six plus two? Eight. What's one thing you'd love to be able to eliminate from your morning routine every day?

SPEAKER_05:

My morning routine? Probably drying my hair, because I find it's just, I always have this hair thing going on.

SPEAKER_02:

If you were a plant, where would you get your nourishment from?

SPEAKER_05:

Hydroponics.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. You have to give a TED Talk on ice cream. What do you call it?

SPEAKER_05:

One of my favorite things when it comes from a really good place.

SPEAKER_02:

Old McDonald had a farm, but what does new McDonald have?

SPEAKER_05:

AI.

SPEAKER_02:

What's a phrase you wish had a definition in the dictionary?

SPEAKER_05:

Phrase.

SPEAKER_02:

Or a word. I

SPEAKER_05:

make up words. Fabulousness. That's one of my new words. Fabulousness. Love it. What's

SPEAKER_02:

your favorite breakfast food? Probably a form of protein. Gum or mints for fresh breath? Mints. Garden gnomes. Are they cute or creepy?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, I probably should say they're cute because I'm Scandinavian. And many of them are supposed to be little elves and gnomes from Scandinavia. But I think most of them are creepy looking, actually.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you for your honesty, Joe. David, with that, we've asked 10 questions. What is the final?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, adjusting for Jocelyn's nonsensical question about the dictionary. He comes in just under the 90-second threshold. Joe is a champion. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00:

Yay!

SPEAKER_01:

And we do have a salute for you. And I know you are not a native of Texas, but you're a resident of Texas. And so the TTN machine has fired up a honky-tonk song to salute you, Joe. Let's take a listen.

SPEAKER_00:

He's not from Texas, but if he calls it home, Joe Jordan will stand alone. With humor and insight, he takes the stage where Joe gets set to engage. He's more than a speaker, he's a guiding light. Turning meetings and events to a powerful flight. He hits the heights and skills are vital. He may be Joe Jordan, but he's sort of like Michael. Oh, Joe Jordan. You light up the room with wisdom and laughter. You chase away the gloom from boardrooms to campgrounds. No place too small. Finding Joe's a great deal, just like Monty Hall. Parenting decisions, better results you teach. Making conflict a creative force within a reach. Critical thinking for business, newer shines in communication. Check out the brain on Joe. Building client relationships that flash up in your life. Let the future be vast. Painting, burn out, keeping us strong. Job and success go together like damn sun and wall. From Texas to the world, your legacy will stay in every heart and mind every single day. So the next time you're down south, this is important. Get some southern barbecue and call Joe Jordan.

SPEAKER_05:

I have never had a song written about me, David. I'm totally honored and totally amazed.

SPEAKER_02:

I think your new tagline needs to be, so when you're in the South, this is important. Get some barbecue and

SPEAKER_05:

crunch. I may put that on

SPEAKER_02:

my website. My favorite thing that's ever come out of these. Absolutely fantastic. Thank you, Joe. For more information on change management and bringing Joe's programs to your organization, visit us at the training associates.com. We'll see you later.